Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Christian Existentialism - Part 2

Epistemology

Note: This part two of the series. Click here for part 1, and click here for part 2.1.

Epistemological concerns are by far the most difficult, but most important, issues to address in theological debate. When reviewing the correspondence that took place last week at the Gadfly, differences in epistemology between the Reformed and exist~dissolve/deviant monk were certainly the cause of debate as well as difficult communication. For those of you who may be unfamiliar with the philosophical/theological term epistemology, let me briefly explain it. Epistemology is the branch of philosophy that is concerned with defining the concept of knowledge. Often in our lives we ask the question, "How do you know?" That is basically what epistemology concerns, but it is more difficult than it seems. For those of you who have never studied epistemology before (and I am by no means an expert), to answer the question How do I know? is not as easy as it may seem. When one studies how one knows, he becomes very aware of the fact that mankind takes the concept of knowledge--the fact that he knows anything--for granted.

The foundation of a worldview in epistemological terms is the concept of authority. Authority concerns sources of truth or knowledge. All worldviews appeal to some sort of authority, and each worldview has a fundamental authority that is taken without question. It could be the scientific method, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or personal experience. From whence do we obtain truth? In the Reformed perspective, our authority is the Canon of the Old (Torah, Prophets, Writings) and New (Gospels, Epistles, Revelation) Testaments. Exist~dissolve's epistemology was and is very difficult to ascertain, and I had to directly correspond with him to get some clarification. The closest "authority" I received from them was "both ecumenical councils and Scripture." However, exist~dissolve qualifies his understanding of authority in this manner:

In my perspective of authority, something does not have to attain an absolute value in order to be considered authoritative. After all, in the kind of “authority” we are speaking about in relation to the Scriptures and councils, this value is applied, not inherent. As an example, Jerome Modell (a world-famous drowning researcher) is not an “authority” on drowning simply because he has studied it, or even because he has reached a certain level of proficiency that automatically registers authority. Rather, he is an expert and authority because others have imbued him (and his abilities) with such. The same is true of government. Government in not an authority simply because it “is,” or even because it exercises over-power. Ultimately, government is “authority” because it has been granted such.

In the same way, the Scriptures and the affirmations of the councils are not authoritative simply because they “are,” as if they have an absolute, eternal value-set that has been lowered on the church. Rather, they are an authority because the church has placed itself under their rule, imbuing them with an authority to outline and delineate the parameters of proper belief. In this way, the “authority” of each is an act of faith that chooses to place itself under the teaching of the apostles, deliberately choosing to believe that they have delivered unto the church, through the guidance of the Spirit, a trustworthy message regarding what they have learned from Christ.

With that being said, my considerations about language and Scripture outlined previously would also apply to the councils and creeds; although they are authoritative to belief, their language does not encapsulate truth absolutely and transcendently. Rather, the authority which they exercise is equally an act of faith of the Church.

In other words, Exist considers the Scripture to be authoritative in a relative sense, and only because the church has thrusted that authority upon them. He and deviant monk do not believe that the Scriptures themselves claim to be authoritative absolutely. The Bible is not intrinsically authoritative due to its "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit, it is authoritative because traditionally, the church gave it its authority. Therefore, his understanding of Scripture as authoritative is limited to persuasion at best, but the canon of Scripture is not absolute and final. Moreover, exist~dissolve and deviant monk have other epistemological claims as well. First, they consider propositional truth problematic, because "it creates the allusion of correspondence between the divine and human (language)." Why? Because human language is incapable of the expression of transcendental divine truth. It is as if God's truth and man's truth are mutually exclusive, which is a theme in the writings of Emil Brunner, Soren Kierkegaard, and other existentialists. In fact, exist~dissolve limits human language even further here, here, and here.

What is interesting to me is this: It seems to me that for exist~dissolve, God is only transcendent (or God's existence is above and beyond the material world) and minimally immanent (existing in, and extending into, all parts of the created realm). It doesn't appear that exist believes that God could be both transcendent and immanent. If he does, that immanence is apparently limited to Person of Christ--the only true "self-revelation" of God. The Bible may be "revelation". but for them, it is not "self-revelation." My best estimate of their epistemology is this: Divine truth is communicated to a man only in an experiential, relational, intimate encounter with the Person of Christ--and it is not obtained through propositional, logical language.

Critique

Concerning Human Language -- The intent of epistemology is to demonstrate that knowledge is possible, and in the realm of theology, its goal is to demonstrate that God is knowable. Exist has admitted the difficulty of explaining how that is possible in the context of his presuppositions, and that difficulty is due to the limitations of human language. The late Gordon H Clark, a Reformed theologian and philosopher, has addressed the above issues quite directly. For example:

Theories of the origin, nature, and purpose of language have been recently developed that would prevent God from speaking truth to man on the ground that language cannot convey literal truth. Some writers say that all language is symbolic or metaphorical...Other writers make more restricted claims and say only that all religious language is metaphorical; from which it follows that if God uses language, he cannot tell the literal truth, but must speak in symbolism or mythology.

Those who defend the Bible as a true revelation must insist that it conveys literal truth. This does not mean that God cannot sometimes use symbolism and metaphor...God might have even used mythology or fable. But unless there are literal statements along with these figures of speech--or at the very least, unless figures of speech can be translated into literal truth--a book conveys no definite meaning.

Suppose the cross is selected as a Christian symbol, and suppose some flowery speaker should say, Let us live in the shadow of the cross. What can he mean? What does the cross symbolize? Does it symbolize the love of God? Or does it symbolize the wrath of God? Does is symbolize human suffering? Or does it symbolize the influence of the church? If there are no literal statement to give information as to what the cross symbolizes, these questions are unanswerable.

Let a person say that the cross symbolizes the love of God. However, if all language or religious language is symbolical, the statement that the cross symbolizes the love of God is itself a symbol. A symbol of what? When this last question is answered, we shall find that this answer is again a symbol. Then another symbol is needed, and another. And the whole process will be meaningless...

...In order to have meaning, an analogy, a metaphor, or a symbol must be supported by some literal truth. If Samson was as strong as an ox, then an ox must literally be strong. If Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah, then something must be literally true about lions and about Christ also. No matter with what literary embellishment the comparison be made, there must be a strictly true statement that has given rise to it. And a theory that says all language is symbolic is a theory that cannot be taken as literally true. Its own statements are metaphorical and meaningless...

...The possibility of rational communication between God and man is easily explained on theistic presuppositions. If God created man in his own rational image and endowed him with the power of speech, then a purpose of language--in fact, the chief purpose of language--would naturally be the revelation of truth to man and the prayers of man to God...language was devised by God; that is, God created man rational for the purpose of theological expression...

...If reason, that is, logic, which makes speech possible is a God-given faculty, it must be adequate to its divinely appointed task. And its task is the reception of divinely revealed information and that systematization of the propositions of dogmatic theology.

To sum up: Language is capable of conveying literal truths because the laws of logic are necessary. There is no substitute for them. Philosophers who deny them reduce their own denials to nonsense syllables...

(God's Hammer: The Bible and Its Critics, 82-85)

Dr. Clark is right. If language is nothing more than an approximation of truth, then that claim is also an approximation. If language can only produce metaphors, then that too is a metaphor. The only logical outcome when pushed to extreme is theological skepticism--knowing God in any way is impossible. I presented this criticism to exist. He responded by redefining approximation and metaphor, while defending against the charge of skepticism. My objections to his response are as follows: (1) When he says that "human language is metaphorical", that proposition does not operate as metaphor. In fact, It seems to communicate his point quite directly. (2) He defines approximation as a "shadow of what could be, of that which we have scarcely brushed with our epistemological abilities before it explodes our capacities for comprehending. It is a deliberately self-deconstructing utilization of language." I would offer that definition as more than self-deconstructing, but as self-defeating. If an approximation is a mere shadow of what could be, then the term approximation is a misnomer and skepticism is the only logical outflow.

If I assumed his premises of language, I honestly would not be able to say that the knowledge of God is possible, and it would be inconsistent for me to accuse anyone of idolatry. The sin of idolatry is the worship of a false image or concept of God, and if the human mind in incapable of expressing the transcendental truths of God thereby producing a measure by which I can judge idolatry, then how am I supposed to know what idolatry is? Better yet, why even praise God? If my words cannot express divine truth, then I can seemingly speak only in blasphemies.

Exist~Dissolve takes the "Human Language" theory even further than those whom Dr. Clark is rebutting. Exist says that if propositional language can capture and define God, then it is consubstantial with God. This is not a presupposition with which I can agree. Human language cannot "define" God in the sense of limiting God and his actions, but it does not follow that language cannot express aspects of God's personality and attributes. When John tells us, "God is love," I see a direct explanation of God's character. It is even in propositional form. Several times in the correspondence, exist~dissolve describes God as infinite and transcendent, which is also a proposed truth claim expressing attributes of God. If exist is correct in his theory of language, he could not even say that God is infinite and transcendent and expect that to mean anything at all to me. I agree with exist when he says that human thought and expression cannot capture the fullness of God, but it does not follow that human language cannot convey truth about God. Is not the claim, "God is love" truthful? If I were to say that my wife is smart, I may not have defined who she is entirely, but I did convey a truth about her.

One last point on the capacities for human language; Gordon H. Clark also made a great point when he said the theories of language are useless in isolation, but need to be a part of a larger philosophical system. A theory of language should determine the origin, nature, and purpose of language and should be rooted in the presuppositions of the system at large. Exists theory is ultimately derived from philosophy system with naturalistic, evolutionary premises. However, this question must be asked. What does it mean to be created in the image of God? Exist has stated that volition is one aspect. Are not also the human capacities for thought, communication, reason, and language part of that image? Exist seems to think that we define God's image by "infinitized" human attributes, but, in fact, it is the other way around. We define the human attributes in limited forms of the divine attributes, and we do not share all of them with the divine. When we describe God, it does not follow that we are limiting God's existence within human language. I am not confining my wife's existence to my words by describing her as tall or beautiful.

Concerning Revelation -- Exist~dissolve seems to misunderstand the Reformed position on authority and revelation when we say, "The Bible is full revelation of God." We do not mean full in the sense of all that God is, we mean full in the sense of all that God has given us. The source of Scripture is God, and I would say God is capable of expressing aspects of himself to us in words. There are aspects of God's purpose and will that are not revealed to us in Scripture, for example, "no one knows the day or hour," says Christ concerning his return, hence, that has not been revealed to us. In the Reformed tradition, the baseline presupposition is this: all that God intends for us to know of Him has been revealed in the Bible.

"Christ is the only self-revelation of God." The question must be asked, how is Jesus the self-revelation? How does the revealing take place? It is implied through some of exist's correspondence that it is by "a bloody cross." Why is a bloody cross significant? How does self-revelation take place? Let me give an illustration stolen from Dr. Clark: If I were to sit in a room with another person, how does a relationship form? He may do nice things for me, but if he does not express himself verbally, I cannot get a glimpse into his higher thoughts, his desires, his likes, his dislikes, his passions, his dreams, his hope, or his opinions. In order for me to better know him relationally, he must voluntarily self-disclose information. If we sat in a room and looked at each other, I cannot say that I've made acquaintance with him.

With Christ, I come to know him personally and relationally through the words he has spoken and the words that I speak. I pray to him using words, and I learn of Him by his words. It is not merely Christ's actions that reveal God's nature, but also the teaching of his words. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass." (Matt 24:35)

Moreover, in the context of the Reformed premise of the "verbal plenary" inspiration of the Bible, the Bible itself is God's self-revelation--for it is God's Spirit who, through the human author, inspired each word stroked by his pen. Thus, ultimately we have God's words that reveal what He intends for us to know of his nature and purposes. Christians are not convinced of the Inspiration of Scripture by reason, they are convinced by a faith given to them of God--and that faith is the basis of all our belief. Since we have what we hold to be a God-given faith--a faith trusting that the ultimate source of the words of Scripture is the Holy Spirit, who is God-very-God--the Bible is the "self-revelation" of God and it is intrinsically authoritative due to the Source. We do not hold that level of authority to creeds and councils, although we may agree with some of the councils' conclusions--and, in fact, are indebted to them for their wisdom.

Divergence from Biblical Authors -- Exist also does not follow the lead of Christ and the apostles. Even if we take Exist's presuppositions concerning biblical inspiration and authority, or even if the Bible is merely historically accurate, we have an idea of what Jesus taught concerning the written words of God. He quotes Deuteronomy in Matthew 4, "Is is written, 'man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" How many times does Jesus say, "it is written" or "it is [not] written?" Why rebut the Pharisees with Old Testament Scripture if exist~dissolve's understanding on authority were true? Why were the authors of the New Testament so concerned with Christ "fulfilling the Scriptures"? (Mark 12:10, 15:28; John 7:42, 13:18, 17:12, 19:24, 19:28; Acts 1:16, among others.) Why does Paul consult Old Testament so very often in his writings? Why use the word theopneustos (All Scripture is God breathed) in 2 Timothy 3:16? Why does Jesus say "The Scripture cannot be broken" in John 10:35? It seems to me that Jesus thought that the Old Testament conveyed literal truth. Why is Peter concerned with people "twisting" Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:16) "as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" if there is not a knowable, literal truth communicated in Paul's letters and the Old Testament? In all honesty, how can Peter accuse them of "twisting" if there were not literal truth being communicated?

It seems that exist and deviant monk depart from New Testament's expressed high (as in absolute) view of Scriptural authority and inerrancy. If the words of the Scripture are "God breathed," why couldn't they communicate divine truth?

Conclusion on Epistemology

Ultimately, exist~dissolve and deviant monk have an outright unquestioned authority. I am not sure what it is. What I can tell you is this: the logical, reasoned outflow of their epistemology can only be skepticism. I am not accusing them of being skeptics. If your read their blogs, you will see that they believe in God and in Christ as the eternal logos of God. They are certain that particular forms of Christianity are idolatrous. What I am saying is that it is inconsistent for them to assert as they do about the incapability of human thought and language to express divine truth and then to claim a genuine, relational knowledge of God.

In the Reformed perspective, we take the Bible as Inspired on faith, and derive the rest from the claims of Scripture, albeit we do make mistakes. However, a misinterpretation of Scripture only brings discredit to the interpreter, not the source. We do have unquestioned, unreasoned presupposition (sola Scriptura), but the presuppositions do not collapse under their own weight. One may disagree with the premise, but it is not a matter of logical fallacy as it is a matter of distaste.

Next, a response to the charge of a "materialist conception of God."

7 comments:

Christopher Barnette said...

If God created man in his own rational image and endowed him with the power of speech, then a purpose of language--in fact, the chief purpose of language--would naturally be the revelation of truth to man and the prayers of man to God...

I would tend to agree completely with this point. If human language is so inadquate then why does God even utilize it in any way, shape, or form? Why would He endow us with reason as the chief faculty that sets us apart from the rest of creation if it is incompatable with our chief purpose to worship and glorify Him?

Brent Railey said...

Ultimately, exist~dissolve and deviant monk have an outright unquestioned authority. I am not sure what it is…

Actually, I have changed my mind on this one. I had an epiphany as I re-proof-read this post. Before, I had not really paid attention to exist's words in the citation:

In my perspective of authority, something does not have to attain an absolute value in order to be considered authoritative. After all, in the kind of “authority” we are speaking about in relation to the Scriptures and councils, this value is applied, not inherent...

...the Scriptures and the affirmations of the councils are not authoritative simply because they “are,” as if they have an absolute, eternal value-set that has been lowered on the church. Rather, they are an authority because the church has placed itself under their rule, imbuing them with an authority to outline and delineate the parameters of proper belief. In this way, the “authority” of each is an act of faith that chooses to place itself under the teaching of the apostles, deliberately choosing to believe that they have delivered unto the church, through the guidance of the Spirit, a trustworthy message regarding what they have learned from Christ.


Note the bolded and italicized text. From whence does the Bible gains its authoritative status? Is it because it is a production of God's spirit? No. Scripture obtains an authoritave status by our "deliberate choosing" to believe.

Therefore, it seems all the talk of a transendent God who is inaccessible by human thought and language is a smokescreen. It seems that we are the ultimate authority by choosing the "authorities" to which we submit.

For argument's sake, I will assume the quoted premise of authority. It follows that the Scripture, including the words of Christ, is not authoritative if I do not believe it to be authoritative.

How then should I handle this passage:

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

(John 12:44-50, NKJV)


How can Christ hold them accountable to the words he speaks if man is the one who grants them authority? It seems to me that Christ Himself clearly says that his words have intrinsic authority by virtue of their ultimate source: the Father.

Christopher Barnette said...

You know I was thinking something similar when we were discussing this on Gadfly. It seemed to me that his concept of authority in regards to things which were human in origin (i.e. the Bible and Ecuminical Councils) had authority simply because we granted them such in good faith that they were based on accurate experiential testimony. And his reason for dismissing Gnostic gospels and the Book of Mormon was because the church in a corporate sense had never accepted them or given them authority, instead of the fact that they are erroneous. I seems to me that the logical conclusion to this type of theology is that the Bible is only necessary if we want it to be and that a theology based exclusively on experiental spirituality is equally as valid as an orthodox one. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Exist-Dissolve said...

Brent--

Thank you for the interaction. Here are some responses to what you have written, with a few mentions of corrections.

In other words, Exist considers the Scripture to be authoritative in a relative sense,

Well, this is true from a certain perspective. The crux, of course, is the question, "relative to what?" I believe the Scriptures are authoritative to Christian belief because they have been the influential documents for defining belief in Christ from the earliest centuries. Their authority, from the beginning, was based upon their apostolicity--they bore the marks of either having been written by an apostle, or containing the tell-tale teaching of the apostles. The later church, when faced with the need of codifying an authoritative canon of documents, appealed directly to this criterion for determining the shape and content of the canon. This is why so many other "gospels" and epistles didn't stand a chance of inclusion, for they simply didn't correspond the apostolic witness that had been preserved in 1.) the generally accepted apostolic documents at the time and 2.) the apostolic tradition which had been preserved within the succession of bishops. Concurrently, this is also why a fair number of books were in dispute up until the end of the 4th century. While they may have borne the marks of apostolic teaching, the simply didn't meet the criterion for canonicity, and the church saw fit to exclude them (although many of them continued to be infuential--and rightly so--in the theological development of the church).

and only because the church has thrusted that authority upon them.

I am disappointed that you selected such a perjorative word--it only clouds the discussion. The church did not thrust authority upon them; contrarily, the church placed itself in authority to the documents, an act which concomitantly imbued the canon with an authority within the life of the church.

He and deviant monk do not believe that the Scriptures themselves claim to be authoritative absolutely. The Bible is not intrinsically authoritative due to its "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit, it is authoritative because traditionally, the church gave it its authority.

The problem with this response is that you are thinking of the Scriptures and the church atomistically, as if they are two separate entities that can be divorced from each other. No such bifurcation is possible, however. The church produced the Scriptures and was subsequently formed theologically by them. There is an interplay of Scripure and tradition that is constantly engaged in the history of the church, an interplay which cannot be dissected into parts.

Therefore, his understanding of Scripture as authoritative is limited to persuasion at best

I'm not sure I understand your meaning here.

What is interesting to me is this: It seems to me that for exist~dissolve, God is only transcendent (or God's existence is above and beyond the material world) and minimally immanent (existing in, and extending into, all parts of the created realm).

I do not believe that God is "minimally immanent" at all. The Incarnation specifically precludes such a conclusion.

It doesn't appear that exist believes that God could be both transcendent and immanent.

Not at all. I fully affirm that God is both.

Theories of the origin, nature, and purpose of language have been recently developed that would prevent God from speaking truth to man on the ground that language cannot convey literal truth.

How would he define "literal" truth, and against which standard would he adjudicate the literality of that which he claims is "literal?" This is precisely the point at which I am driving.

Some writers say that all language is symbolic or metaphorical...Other writers make more restricted claims and say only that all religious language is metaphorical; from which it follows that if God uses language, he cannot tell the literal truth, but must speak in symbolism or mythology.

My question above would be raised here, also.

Those who defend the Bible as a true revelation must insist that it conveys literal truth.

Perhaps this is a necessary conclusion. However, it places an incredible burden of proof upon such an adherent for 1.) That would have to show how it is possible to determine the difference between a "true" and "false" revelation of God and 2.) they would, again, have establish that they are in a position to epistemologically adjudicate literal truth. As both of these propositions appear to be entirely impossible to establish, the impetus for this gentleman's claims can only proceed from the basis of theological fiat.

This does not mean that God cannot sometimes use symbolism and metaphor...God might have even used mythology or fable. But unless there are literal statements along with these figures of speech--or at the very least, unless figures of speech can be translated into literal truth--a book conveys no definite meaning.

I hardly see why "definite meaning" can or should be reducible to "literality," notwithstanding the already stated difficulty of establishing what this actually is.

Suppose the cross is selected as a Christian symbol, and suppose some flowery speaker should say, Let us live in the shadow of the cross. What can he mean? What does the cross symbolize? Does it symbolize the love of God? Or does it symbolize the wrath of God? Does is symbolize human suffering? Or does it symbolize the influence of the church? If there are no literal statement to give information as to what the cross symbolizes, these questions are unanswerable.

I'm not entirely sure this is consistent with the rest of his argument.

Let a person say that the cross symbolizes the love of God. However, if all language or religious language is symbolical, the statement that the cross symbolizes the love of God is itself a symbol. A symbol of what? When this last question is answered, we shall find that this answer is again a symbol. Then another symbol is needed, and another. And the whole process will be meaningless...

I do not see why this process is meaningless. Even if we were to take his perspective, we are still left with an infinite string of symbols, for to speak about anything is to "symbol" it--this is what words, phrases and language are about.

...In order to have meaning, an analogy, a metaphor, or a symbol must be supported by some literal truth. If Samson was as strong as an ox, then an ox must literally be strong.

This is where his argument falls apart. For while the phrase, "strong as an ox" is referential to an ox, the very defining of an ox as "strong" is an act of symbolism. After all, what is an ox strong in comparison to? To a human? Sure. To a sperm whale? Probably not. Therefore, even the "literality" to which he points in this example is self-deconstructing, for the supposed "literal-ness" of the meaning is itself a symbol for another meaning.

No matter with what literary embellishment the comparison be made, there must be a strictly true statement that has given rise to it.

This begs the question of strictness: according to what standard of "strength" is an ox strong?

And a theory that says all language is symbolic is a theory that cannot be taken as literally true. Its own statements are metaphorical and meaningless...

Well, they are only metaphorical and meaningless if one presupposes that meaning can only be found in literality (which is quite suspect in itself). For those who do not presuppose these categories, the critique is hardly applicable.

...The possibility of rational communication between God and man is easily explained on theistic presuppositions. If God created man in his own rational image and endowed him with the power of speech, then a purpose of language--in fact, the chief purpose of language--would naturally be the revelation of truth to man and the prayers of man to God...language was devised by God; that is, God created man rational for the purpose of theological expression...

...If reason, that is, logic, which makes speech possible is a God-given faculty, it must be adequate to its divinely appointed task. And its task is the reception of divinely revealed information and that systematization of the propositions of dogmatic theology.


This is a gigantic presupposition that has seemingly no reasonable proof. I hardly see why the endowment of humanity with rationality equates to the "natural" task of systematization and dogmatism in language about the divine. This is poor piece of rhetoric, IMO.

To sum up: Language is capable of conveying literal truths because the laws of logic are necessary.

They are? Upon what basis does he adjudicate this necessity? To determine necessity, one has to be in the position to also determine non-necessity.

Dr. Clark is right. If language is nothing more than an approximation of truth, then that claim is also an approximation. If language can only produce metaphors, then that too is a metaphor. The only logical outcome when pushed to extreme is theological skepticism--knowing God in any way is impossible. I presented this criticism to exist. He responded by redefining approximation and metaphor, while defending against the charge of skepticism. My objections to his response are as follows: (1) When he says that "human language is metaphorical", that proposition does not operate as metaphor. In fact, It seems to communicate his point quite directly. (2) He defines approximation as a "shadow of what could be, of that which we have scarcely brushed with our epistemological abilities before it explodes our capacities for comprehending. It is a deliberately self-deconstructing utilization of language." I would offer that definition as more than self-deconstructing, but as self-defeating. If an approximation is a mere shadow of what could be, then the term approximation is a misnomer and skepticism is the only logical outflow.

But the definition of skepticism is based upon a presupposed value of its antithesis. Therefore, if one has an over-realized epistemology, what might appear to be skepticism to one may appear to be reasonable discourse to another.

If I assumed his premises of language, I honestly would not be able to say that the knowledge of God is possible, and it would be inconsistent for me to accuse anyone of idolatry. The sin of idolatry is the worship of a false image or concept of God,

Actually, idolatry is worshipping the created instead of the Creator. As to having false concepts of God, welcome to being human. If you can show me someone who has no false concepts of God whatsoever, I will show you someone who thinks they are God.

and if the human mind in incapable of expressing the transcendental truths of God thereby producing a measure by which I can judge idolatry, then how am I supposed to know what idolatry is? Better yet, why even praise God? If my words cannot express divine truth, then I can seemingly speak only in blasphemies.

I do not have a problem with truth being expressed through language. My entire polemic has been against propsotional language which, by its very nature, presupposes that information being communicated encapsulates the very essence of divine truth.

Exist~Dissolve takes the "Human Language" theory even further than those whom Dr. Clark is rebutting. Exist says that if propositional language can capture and define God, then it is consubstantial with God. This is not a presupposition with which I can agree. Human language cannot "define" God in the sense of limiting God and his actions, but it does not follow that language cannot express aspects of God's personality and attributes. When John tells us, "God is love," I see a direct explanation of God's character.

I agree that it is a "direct explanation" from the author about his conception of the nature of GOd. My issue is with what our minds do with the language of "God is love." As I have already, and at some length, described, propositional language about these issues leads to absurd conclusions which forces us--through out language--to constrain the actuality of the divine nature by our perception of it.

I agree with exist when he says that human thought and expression cannot capture the fullness of God, but it does not follow that human language cannot convey truth about God. Is not the claim, "God is love" truthful? If I were to say that my wife is smart, I may not have defined who she is entirely, but I did convey a truth about her.

But what truth did you convey about your wife? In comparison to what standard is she tall and beautiful? This gets back to my point made a while ago in previous postings: these values of "tall" and "beautiful" are not abstact categories that exist independently of their subjects; rather, these are value claims--meanings, if you will--that we have placed in relation to other things. If we were to say that it is a propositional truth that your wife is tall and beautiful, we would be forced to say that there exists outside of her a standard of "beauty" and "tallness" to which she obtains. Not a big deal in relationship to humans (although something that should be considered, for sure). However, when we do this in relationship to the divine, we are positing the existence of a category of being or value outside of the nature of God that is capable of delimiting the character of God. IOW, God "measures" up to this standard, and so we proceed to call God "x." However, as I have also mentioned, this is a ridiculous conclusion, unless one wishes to posit the indepedent and eternal existence of "x" over and against the existence of God.

Exists theory is ultimately derived from philosophy system with naturalistic, evolutionary premises.

My cosmology (the nature of the universe) certainly proceeds along these lines. However, my philosophical methodology is hardly reducible to such.

However, this question must be asked. What does it mean to be created in the image of God? Exist has stated that volition is one aspect. Are not also the human capacities for thought, communication, reason, and language part of that image? Exist seems to think that we define God's image by "infinitized" human attributes, but, in fact, it is the other way around. We define the human attributes in limited forms of the divine attributes, and we do not share all of them with the divine.

I disagree. Look at the omni-statements: do they make any sense apart from the created order?

When we describe God, it does not follow that we are limiting God's existence within human language.

If we use propositional language, and suppose that it encapsulates objective, absolute truth, we sure do.

I am not confining my wife's existence to my words by describing her as tall or beautiful.

By using these words, you have qualified her existenc in a particular way.

Exist~dissolve seems to misunderstand the Reformed position on authority and revelation when we say, "The Bible is full revelation of God." We do not mean full in the sense of all that God is, we mean full in the sense of all that God has given us. The source of Scripture is God, and I would say God is capable of expressing aspects of himself to us in words. There are aspects of God's purpose and will that are not revealed to us in Scripture, for example, "no one knows the day or hour," says Christ concerning his return, hence, that has not been revealed to us. In the Reformed tradition, the baseline presupposition is this: all that God intends for us to know of Him has been revealed in the Bible.

All? So if the apostles and others had never written the Scriptures, there would be no knowledge of God in the world?

The question must be asked, how is Jesus the self-revelation? How does the revealing take place? It is implied through some of exist's correspondence that it is by "a bloody cross." Why is a bloody cross significant?

To me, the cross is significant because it explodes all the presuppositions about God's power. Rather than displaying over-power in the Incarnation, God reveals the divine through weakness, through absurdity.

How does self-revelation take place?

I would suggest that it takes place within community-being-together.

Let me give an illustration stolen from Dr. Clark: If I were to sit in a room with another person, how does a relationship form? He may do nice things for me, but if he does not express himself verbally, I cannot get a glimpse into his higher thoughts, his desires, his likes, his dislikes, his passions, his dreams, his hope, or his opinions. In order for me to better know him relationally, he must voluntarily self-disclose information. If we sat in a room and looked at each other, I cannot say that I've made acquaintance with him.

No offense, but this is incorrect. If you have ever had a friend who could not verbalize words, you would know that all of the things which you have described as self-revelation (the disclosure of hopes, fears, etc.) is possible without a single word ever being spoken. In fact, given the way in which human language is so easily deceiving, I would suggest that it should be the last recourse for self-disclosure, rather than the first.

With Christ, I come to know him personally and relationally through the words he has spoken and the words that I speak. I pray to him using words, and I learn of Him by his words. It is not merely Christ's actions that reveal God's nature, but also the teaching of his words.

I agree that words are important. However, Christian faith is built upon the reality of a person, not a collection of pithy quotes.

and, in fact, are indebted to them for their wisdom.

THe word "dependent" would be more accurate.

Exist also does not follow the lead of Christ and the apostles.

Oh....

Even if we take Exist's presuppositions concerning biblical inspiration and authority, or even if the Bible is merely historically accurate, we have an idea of what Jesus taught concerning the written words of God. He quotes Deuteronomy in Matthew 4, "Is is written, 'man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" How many times does Jesus say, "it is written" or "it is [not] written?" Why rebut the Pharisees with Old Testament Scripture if exist~dissolve's understanding on authority were true?

I don't understand the question.

Why were the authors of the New Testament so concerned with Christ "fulfilling the Scriptures"?

I would presume that much of it was apologetic in origin. However, being as the Tanakh was authoritative to them as Jews, it is not surprising that they would appeal to them, even as Christians appeal to the NT as a source of authority for belief.

Why does Paul consult Old Testament so very often in his writings?

Well, in most of his writings, he was attempting to correct Jewish misconceptions of Christian faith. It would have been quite useful for him to appeal to the same authority as that which his listeners affirmed.

Why use the word theopneustos (All Scripture is God breathed) in 2 Timothy 3:16?

What's your point? The mere instance of the word, "God-breathed," hardly defines itself, nor locates a mechanism in the process of inspiration.

Why does Jesus say "The Scripture cannot be broken" in John 10:35? It seems to me that Jesus thought that the Old Testament conveyed literal truth. Why is Peter concerned with people "twisting" Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:16) "as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" if there is not a knowable, literal truth communicated in Paul's letters and the Old Testament?

It depends upon how you are defining "literality."

In all honesty, how can Peter accuse them of "twisting" if there were not literal truth being communicated?

They were twisting the apostolic meaning of Paul's words--that is what Peter is saying in this verse, IMO.

It seems that exist and deviant monk depart from New Testament's expressed high (as in absolute) view of Scriptural authority and inerrancy.

This is only a "high" view if, in fact, you can prove that such a claim is made and substantiated. Otherwise, the "high" view whcih you presuppose might actually be something entirely different.

Ultimately, exist~dissolve and deviant monk have an outright unquestioned authority. I am not sure what it is. What I can tell you is this: the logical, reasoned outflow of their epistemology can only be skepticism.

Skepticism compared to what? Your perspective? Sure, you are probably right. But is this actually skepticism? Perhaps you have an over-realized epistemology. In that case, my skepticism may actually be something entirely different.

I am not accusing them of being skeptics. If your read their blogs, you will see that they believe in God and in Christ as the eternal logos of God. They are certain that particular forms of Christianity are idolatrous. What I am saying is that it is inconsistent for them to assert as they do about the incapability of human thought and language to express divine truth and then to claim a genuine, relational knowledge of God.

What I am denying is that truth about God can be objectively and absolutely contained within propositional language. Once this deadweigth is thrown aside, there is an abundant room avaiable for understanding how language can express "truth" about God without resorting to absolutzination and fiat of propositional language.

However, a misinterpretation of Scripture only brings discredit to the interpreter, not the source. We do have unquestioned, unreasoned presupposition (sola Scriptura), but the presuppositions do not collapse under their own weight.

I would disagree with this, of course. How would you know if it wil or will not collapse under its own weight if you have not questioned it?

Christopher Barnette said...

“I agree that it is a "direct explanation" from the author about his conception of the nature of GOd.”

You are twisting the statement. The statement was not “God is like love” or “God is nearly similar to love” it was “God is love.” You assume from the outset that love is of human origin and that the concept of love proceeds from human understanding and we are conforming God to our understanding of it. I would submit that God is the source of and the model for what we understand to be love and that our concept of love conformed to God’s example.


“To me, the cross is significant because it explodes all the presuppositions about God's power. Rather than displaying over-power in the Incarnation, God reveals the divine through weakness, through absurdity.”


Your description is accurate, but only insofar as your have a preexisting understanding of what the cross symbolizes. To a pagan raised in the wilderness, “a bloody cross” has no significant message or relevance other than being a curiosity. What I think Brent is implying is that the cross as an object standing by itself communicates nothing without the Scriptures to revel the deity of Jesus and His work that was accomplished on it.


“I agree that words are important. However, Christian faith is built upon the reality of a person, not a collection of pithy quotes.”

How then are we made aware of the reality of this person? You talk as if your revelation of Christ came about as a result of a Damascus road type encounter as opposed to the hearing of the Word. Please tell me you weren’t referring to the Word of God as a “collection of pithy quotes.”

Lance Roberts said...

"However, when we do this in relationship to the divine, we are positing the existence of a category of being or value outside of the nature of God that is capable of delimiting the character of God."

We aren't positing anything, God is revealing it to us.

If you believe in a naturalistic, evolutionary process; then you have denied the very revelation of God.

Brent Railey said...

Exist ~

Some of the topics we hammered out some more in the later posts. I’ve finally got some time to analyze some of your thoughts that were not addressed in the other posts—and to clarify where you have asked me to clarify.

Well, [you considering the Scripture to be authoritative in a relative sense] is true from a certain perspective. The crux, of course, is the question, "relative to what?"

In a relativistic epistemology, this question is ultimately impossible to answer.

I am disappointed that you selected such a pejorative word [thrusted]--it only clouds the discussion.

Exist, if you were to read over your own remarks, you’d see several pejorative words, in fact, in your post above you used the word fiat, which carries about as much emotional weight as my use of thrusted in its context. I use the word to emphasize that, in your view, it was the church who chose to subject herself to biblical authority, and that consequently, the Bible has no intrinsic authority.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning [“authority of Scripture is limited to persuasion at best.”] here.

In your view, Scripture does not derive its authority from God being its source, its authority is derived from the church’s submission to them. However, do the principles and teachings of Scripture carry authority (as in the power to condemn) over the unbeliever? It seems that one has to be persuaded of their authority in order for the to be authoritative.

Perhaps [“The Reformed must insist that Scripture conveys literal truth”] is a necessary conclusion. However, it places an incredible burden of proof upon such an adherent for 1.) That would have to show how it is possible to determine the difference between a "true" and "false" revelation of God and 2.) they would, again, have establish that they are in a position to epistemologically adjudicate literal truth. As both of these propositions appear to be entirely impossible to establish, the impetus for this gentleman's claims can only proceed from the basis of theological fiat.

However, you would also have the same burden of proof when you say that Christ is the only self-revelation of God. By using the term revelation, you imply that Christ does a work of revealing truth concerning the divine nature. You would also have to demonstrate how it is possible to determine that Christ is the true self-revelation as compared to the other men in history claiming to be christs and messiahs.

When I or Dr. Gordon H Clark state that Scripture reveals/conveys literal truth, that is a fundamental presupposition we take without question. If I attempted to prove that it is true revelation by some other means outside of itself, then I am, in actuality, place those means on a higher level of authority than the Scripture itself.

Propositions are established within the context of assumed presuppositions—presuppositions cannot be “proved.” I could also do this to you with your presuppositions, and when you clearly state a positive and affirming presupposition, I could also claim that you have burden of proof to demonstrate the presuppositions as viable.

Your dislike of my presuppositions does not obligate me to prove them to you, nor does my dislike of yours obligate you to prove yours to me. All your or I can do is demonstrate the inconsistencies that result from an opposing set of presuppositions.

I do not see why this process [metaphor of a metaphor of a metaphor, etc.] is meaningless. Even if we were to take [Dr. Clark’s] perspective, we are still left with an infinite string of symbols, for to speak about anything is to "symbol" it--this is what words, phrases and language are about.

This is by far the best point you have made. I really had to think on this one. What’s the difference between a word and a metaphor? What’s the difference between a symbol and a word?

Dr. Clark’s point is this: With a presupposition about language such as yours, there is never a point in which the symbol directly refers to something real or tangible. In With Dr. Clark, if I were to say, “Compared to an ox, an ant is quite smaller in mass.” Ox, ant, small, and mass do not refer to another symbol which then refers to yet another symbol. Ox directly refers to an ox, and an ant directly refers to an ant.

Actually, idolatry is worshipping the created instead of the Creator. As to having false concepts of God, welcome to being human. If you can show me someone who has no false concepts of God whatsoever, I will show you someone who thinks they are God.

Is not a false concept of God something created by a creature? Granted, I’d agree that we all have something incorrect in our beliefs about God—and I would say that this reality would make us all idolaters. How are we to correct our errors in our concept of God?

I do not have a problem with truth being expressed through language. My entire polemic has been against propositional language which, by its very nature, presupposes that information being communicated encapsulates the very essence of divine truth.

This is not representative of the Reformed position on revelation at all. We are not constructing a deity with our words, we believe that God has given us a description of himself in his own words.

…As I have already, and at some length, described, propositional language about these issues leads to absurd conclusions which forces us--through out language--to constrain the actuality of the divine nature by our perception of it.

This is a crass caricature of propositional language. First, if you going to pigeonhole propositional language about God as forcing absurd conclusions, then I will also pigeonhole your metaphorical language as bringing us no conclusions at all. Second, no Reformed student believes that propositions have the power to define God. God only defines himself to use. We make propositions knowing the wrong propositions—and resulting errors in conclusions—do not change the nature of God in any way.

Third, you have made the claim on several occasions that God cannot be described in propositional language—and this claim is implied in your statements above. This claim operates as a proposition, for you use logic to make deductions and conclusions about what we should say or think about God from this proposition. “Since the nature of God cannot be expressed in propositions, we should avoid doing so.” Therefore, you are guilty of the same charge of “constraining the actuality of the divine nature by our perception of it.” Your proposition has constrained the divine nature to be inaccessible by propositions.

…However, when we do this in relationship to the divine, we are positing the existence of a category of being or value outside of the nature of God that is capable of delimiting the character of God. IOW, God "measures" up to this standard, and so we proceed to call God "x." However, as I have also mentioned, this is a ridiculous conclusion, unless one wishes to posit the indepedent and eternal existence of "x" over and against the existence of God.

Exist, if you want to demonstrate inconsistencies in my position, then you need to fully assume my presuppositions. Here you have not. We do not believe we have created a measure outside of God by which we can measure him. We believe that God his given us a measure of truth in his word—words of which He is the source, and hence, since God is describing and revealing Himself, He Himself is the measure—God and “x” are one in the same.

[The Scriptures reveal] All [of which God intends to reveal]? So if the apostles and others had never written the Scriptures, there would be no knowledge of God in the world?

I believe there would be no truthful knowledge of God—other than that He may exist. There would be know knowledge of redemption or Christ at all. There could be no knowledge of His holiness—You could no deduce his immanent presence in the world. If one assumed that God exists, logically, one could never reasonably deduce any omni-attribute. He could deduce that God knows more than himself, but not that God is all-knowing. He could deduce that God is very powerful and stronger than himself, but no omnipotence.

To me, the cross is significant because it explodes all the presuppositions about God's power. Rather than displaying over-power in the Incarnation, God reveals the divine through weakness, through absurdity.

What exactly did the cross reveal about the divine? You explain the means by which the cross reveals, but not what it reveals about God.

I would suggest that [self-Revelation] takes place within community-being-together.

(1) Nice suggestion—but you should provide some proof since you seem to think that I need to in regard to my understanding of revelation? How do you know that the community-experience is truly from God? (2) By your description of how Christ actually reveals, experience performs the real work of revelation about God, not Christ. You ultimately have the same problem as I do now. In my epistemology, God reveals by mode of Word, in yours, He does by mode of experience—both of which are not God himself.

I don't understand the question. [Why rebut the Pharisees with Old Testament Scripture if exist dissolve’s understanding of Scripture were true?]

You had said that language is problematic in revealing truth about God and his nature. If that were true, Christ should not have used the Old Testament when he rebutted and corrected the Pharisees—for the Old Testament is expressed in human language and therefore cannot convey transcendental truth.

Well, in most of his writings, he was attempting to correct Jewish misconceptions of Christian faith. It would have been quite useful for him to appeal to the same authority as that which his listeners affirmed.

Yet he was also explaining to the Gentiles thing concerning God’s nature—and he also consulted the Old Testament to explain things to them. Moreover, Paul was the “apostle to the Gentiles” and most of his writings were to predominantly Gentile churches: Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Phillipi, etc. It is also clear that Paul considered them to be God’s words—hence theopneustos.

You may try to avoid the significance of that word, but it is clear connection to human language. It relates to the fact that most words are uttered by human breath, thus the Old Testament came by God’s “breath.” He was not merely appealing to something he knew the Jew accepted as authoritative. It is clear from his own writing that Paul himself considered the OT to be authoritative because God is its source. One time, when quoting Old Testament, Paul prefaced the citation with “God said.”